Heller HMS Victory problem

[Jon]

I'm working on the Heller HMS Victory (1/100 scale) and was very surprised
to find that the decks do not fit inside the hull. The top deck at its
widest point is 6/32 of an inch too wide. A little sanding to fit would be
expected but not that much. I first noticed this problem with the second
deck from the bottom but as the hull narrows as it goes up things are
getting progressively worse. I have read many of the favorable comments
about this kit in this group and therefore assumed I had made some mistake
in assemble but in reviewing I don't see how this could be. The two hull
halves are just glued together and I don't see how any adjustments (or
mistakes) could be made. Anyone else have such a problem with the Heller HMS
Victory?

Jon

[the Legend of LAX]

Don't forget that there a camber to the decks. They should bow a little
in the middle & not lay flat. Mine seemed to fit fine. I don't recall
having any significant fit problems with any deck.

Post by Jon
I'm working on the Heller HMS Victory (1/100 scale) and was very surprised
to find that the decks do not fit inside the hull. The top deck at its
widest point is 6/32 of an inch too wide.

[Don Harstad]

Post by Jon
I'm working on the Heller HMS Victory (1/100 scale) and was very surprised
to find that the decks do not fit inside the hull. The top deck at its
widest point is 6/32 of an inch too wide. A little sanding to fit would be
expected but not that much. I first noticed this problem with the second
deck from the bottom but as the hull narrows as it goes up things are
getting progressively worse. I have read many of the favorable comments
about this kit in this group and therefore assumed I had made some mistake
in assemble but in reviewing I don't see how this could be. The two hull
halves are just glued together and I don't see how any adjustments (or
mistakes) could be made. Anyone else have such a problem with the Heller HMS
Victory?
Jon

I encountered the same problem with my second one. The first one went
together with very little problem, but I had to use furniture clamps to get
the decks to fit on the second. (I also drilled holes in the hull and into
the deck edges, and inserted brass pins secured with epoxy, just to make
sure. The thing's still together...."

I thought I'd made a serious error somewhere dureing that phase of the
construction, and I still believe that I did. I just never figured out what
it was.

Don H.

[Jon]

Thanks for replying guys.

Don: Your second one? Wow! It sounds like you had just the opposite
problem from me...that the hull was to wide for the decks to fit rather than
too narrow.

Dale and Alexander: Good point about the camber of the decks but I think
6/32 is too much to spread the hulls apart. I'm afraid I will split the
whole thing apart. I did have trouble with the hull braces in that they did
not fit correctly and finally had to trim some of them. The real problem
started with the 3rd deck (one just above the main gun decks). Significantly
too wide, but since it comes in two parts with a straight edge down the
middle it was realitevely easy to sand it down to fit. (BTW for this deck
you can't spread apart the hull so it will fit...no "give" that far down)
The next deck up is going to be more of a problem...it is one piece, curved
and taperd. Lots of sanding, trial and error I guess. But, why is this
bloody thing too narrow??? I can't have put it together wrong...there is no
place to make a mistake.

Jon

[Jon]

Thanks for replying guys.

Don: Your second one? Wow! It sounds like you had just the opposite
problem from me...that the hull was to wide for the decks to fit rather than
too narrow.

Dale and Alexander: Good point about the camber of the decks but I think
6/32 is too much to spread the hulls apart. I'm afraid I will split the
whole thing apart. I did have trouble with the hull braces in that they did
not fit correctly and finally had to trim some of them. The real problem
started with the 3rd deck (one just above the main gun decks). Significantly
too wide, but since it comes in two parts with a straight edge down the
middle it was relatively easy to sand it down to fit. (BTW for this deck
you can't spread apart the hull so it will fit...no "give" that far down)
The next deck up is going to be more of a problem...it is one piece, curved
and tapered. Lots of sanding, trial and error I guess. But, why is this
bloody thing too narrow??? I can't have put it together wrong...there is no
place to make a mistake.

Jon

[Alexander Arnakis]

Post by Jon
I did have trouble with the hull braces in that they did
not fit correctly and finally had to trim some of them.

That was your mistake right there. The hull braces are critical, in
that they regulate the distance between the hull sides. At all costs,
they should not be trimmed.

But, as I said, the locations of some of the hull braces, as specified
in the instructions, are incorrect. A quick way to tell which brace
goes where is to is to place it on the deck pieces, in the appropriate
location. Note also that the 3 braces for the third deck up are not
notched, whereas the rest are.

All the braces should be glued in place before any of the decks are
installed. This helps to form the hull. Some of the braces will be
noticably bowed (upwards) when first installed, but the bowing will
lessen as the hull "settles" into shape.

The lower 3 decks can then be installed by sliding the halves in from
the rear. The spar deck, being one piece, is snapped in from above. If
the braces have been correctly installed, you should have no problem
springing the hull sides out enough to install the upper decks without
any trimming.

This is a good example of why trial-fitting everything on a kit like
this is so essential. Whatever you, don't try to rush this kit!

[ARMDCAV]

An adendum to the trial fit theory. Once you glue it up wrong it's going to
just get worse. When I glued the hull together I didn't pay enough attention to
the stem. I concentrated on the stern to assure that the rudder would fit
properly. The port side of the stem protruded 1/32 of an inch beyond the
starboard side. No problem I'll just sand it down. Well there was a problem.
Everything behind the stem was now off by that much, all the way back to the
stern. The poop deck was flush to the transom on the port side but off on the
starboard by, you guessed it. Had to trim the circumferance of the masts to get
them to slide down through each deck layer properly. The bow parts were a bear
to correct because they're shape were intended to fit snug and they do not
bend. If you try they just warp out of shape, in the wrong direction. This
little mistake probably added 20 hours and a lot of frustration to the build
time. Oh well whats life without it's little challanges right?

[Jon]

Post by Alexander Arnakis
But, as I said, the locations of some of the hull braces, as specified
in the instructions, are incorrect. A quick way to tell which brace
goes where is to is to place it on the deck pieces, in the appropriate
location. > All the braces should be glued in place before any of the

decks are

Post by Alexander Arnakis
installed. This helps to form the hull. Some of the braces will be
noticably bowed (upwards) when first installed, but the bowing will
lessen as the hull "settles" into shape.
The lower 3 decks can then be installed by sliding the halves in from
the rear.

How did you know to install all of the hull braces before installing the
decks to help form the hull. Certainly not from the directions included
with the kit! I checked last night and I can spread the hulls apart enough
to install the spar and poop decks. Whew! I was afraid the whole thing would
split apart but it did not. The next deck down will have to be trimmed to
fit but that's not too bad. Sooo looks like I can recover from my major
screw up with out too many problems. Sounds like you really know this kit
and how to go about assembling it. Any other major problems with the
instructions I should know about??

Thanks
Jon

[Alexander Arnakis]

Post by Jon
How did you know to install all of the hull braces before installing the
decks to help form the hull. Certainly not from the directions included
with the kit! I checked last night and I can spread the hulls apart enough
to install the spar and poop decks. Whew! I was afraid the whole thing would
split apart but it did not. The next deck down will have to be trimmed to
fit but that's not too bad. Sooo looks like I can recover from my major
screw up with out too many problems. Sounds like you really know this kit
and how to go about assembling it. Any other major problems with the
instructions I should know about??

The first thing I did was read (and study!) the instructions all the
way through -- because things you do at the early stages will affect
what happens at the later stages. Then, I did a detailed examination
of the parts of the kit, and compared them to the instructions. That's
where discrepancies started to show up.

One of the things I like to do on my large-scale ships is to make the
hulls watertight, and ballast them so that they float in a
prototypical trim (not that I plan to actually take them to the
neighborhood pond!). This usually requires a change in the order of
assembly, which in turn exposes any weaknesses in the instructions.

For my purposes, I had to figure out a way to create hull integrity
*before* installing the decks. That's when I figured that the decks
could be installed from the rear, and that it's actually preferable to
do it that way.

Another thing I'm doing on this model is making working steering, a la
the Revell Constitution. The rudder on the Heller Victory, straight
out of the box, is held on with tiny molded pins, and is not designed
to be movable. I drilled the hinge parts (in both hull and rudder) for
a full-length brass hinge pin, and carved a tiller out of plastic bar
stock. This will be rigged with thread, through holes in the decks, to
the ship's wheel.

Another tricky part is the shroud deadeyes. The upper and lower
deadeyes are on the plastic "trees" in correct order. But they
shouldn't be laced together while still on the trees -- that would
make them too close together. I'm just temporarily tying them together
until I rig the shrouds properly, later. The instructions don't show
that the upper deadeyes need to be grooved around their circumference,
so that the shroud lines will stay in place.

[ARMDCAV]

Subject: Re: Heller HMS Victory problem
From: Alexander Arnakis
r. But they
shouldn't be laced together while still on the trees -- that would
make them too close together. I'm just temporarily tying them together
until I rig the shrouds properly, later

How far apart should they be? I'm thinking about seperating the trees, adding
spacers between and reataching them at the correct spacing. Would that work?
This kit is a bear allready without making any stupid assumptions on my part.

The instructions don't show
that the upper deadeyes need to be grooved around their circumference,
so that the shroud lines will stay in place.

They also don't show how to wrap the lines around the blocks. There are pins
protruding out but do you force the thread into these pins or wrap the thread
around these pins kind of a zigzag? Whew, I';ve been working on mine for over a
year and still havn't started rigging it.

[Alexander Arnakis]

How far apart should they be? I'm thinking about separating the trees, adding
spacers between and reattaching them at the correct spacing. Would that work?
This kit is a bear allready without making any stupid assumptions on my part.

Well, on the Revell Constitution model, which has preassembled
deadeyes, the distance between the upper and lower deadeyes is about
1/2". This seems about right for the Victory as well.

On the Victory, the deadeyes are supposed to be laced together with
thread, in a prototypical fashion. (This is covered in the
instructions.) These threads are what control the spacing. My point
was that they shouldn't be laced together while still on the trees.
That would put the upper and lower deadeyes too close together. (Your
idea would work if you separated the trees, but if you did that, you
could just as well lace the deadeyes individually.)

They also don't show how to wrap the lines around the blocks. There are pins
protruding out but do you force the thread into these pins or wrap the thread
around these pins kind of a zigzag? Whew, I've been working on mine for over a
year and still havn't started rigging it.

The "protruding pins" are on the *lower* deadeyes (the lower one of
each pair). They're actually not pins, but plastic loops that go down
through the slots in the channels. According to the instructions,
two-part loops of thread are used to attach these lower deadeyes to
the hull. (I'm simplifying this step, on mine, by using a continuous
thread, woven in and out of the hull, to attach each group of lower
deadeyes, instead of two-part individual loops. It would take a very
close inspection to tell the difference, and I'm saving many, many
hours of extra work.)

The shroud lines are wrapped around the circumference of the *upper*
deadeyes. Those are the ones that should be grooved to keep the
shrouds from slipping off. Prototypically, the end of each shroud line
should be seized to itself with smaller thread. But, again, it's a big
timesaver just to tie the shrouds with knots.

One thing I would do would be to ignore the Heller "ratline machine"
that comes in the kit. This is supposed to give you the "preformed
ratlines" often seen in other kits, but the result just doesn't look
right. Set up the shrouds first, and then worry about the ratlines.
You can either tie the ratlines to the shrouds with clove hitches, or
thread them through the shrouds with a needle. (Obviously you use much
smaller thread for the ratlines than you do for the shrouds.)

[Jon]

Alexander

Thanks for the tips. It would be great to see some pictures when you have
it finished. Come to think of it I wouldn't mind seeing some during
construction too.

Thanks
Jon

[W]

Post by Alexander Arnakis
One of the things I like to do on my large-scale ships is to make the
hulls watertight, and ballast them so that they float in a
prototypical trim (not that I plan to actually take them to the
neighborhood pond!). This usually requires a change in the order of
assembly, which in turn exposes any weaknesses in the instructions.

What do you use for the ballast?

[Alexander Arnakis]

Post by W

Post by Alexander Arnakis
One of the things I like to do on my large-scale ships is to make the
hulls watertight, and ballast them so that they float in a
prototypical trim (not that I plan to actually take them to the
neighborhood pond!). This usually requires a change in the order of
assembly, which in turn exposes any weaknesses in the instructions.

What do you use for the ballast?

I've tried many things. The most convenient way is to use the stick-on
lead weights made for model railroading (strips of 1/4 oz. squares
with foam sticky tape). But for a really large ship (like the Victory)
this gets expensive. I'm experimenting with melting down 5-lb. ingots
of lead (from the plumbing supply store) into 1/4" thick sheets,
cutting them to fit, and attaching with double-faced foam tape.

Years ago, I used aquarium gravel, held in place by dripping in candle
wax. Then, instead of the wax, I used urethane spray expanding sealant
to hold the rocks and gravel in place. But these methods are messy,
imprecise, and might deform the plastic hulls unless used with extreme
care.

[Ron]

Get yourself a box of .45 caliber lead balls for muzzleloaders and just
epoxy in place. I even used 6 of them in a 1/35 Jagdtiger against the
rear plate to counterbalance all the resin up front...still could have
used 3 or 4 more.....with Fruil tracks the thing is close to scale
weight.

Post by Alexander Arnakis
I've tried many things. The most convenient way is to use the stick-on
lead weights made for model railroading (strips of 1/4 oz. squares
with foam sticky tape). But for a really large ship (like the Victory)
this gets expensive. I'm experimenting with melting down 5-lb. ingots
of lead (from the plumbing supply store) into 1/4" thick sheets,
cutting them to fit, and attaching with double-faced foam tape.
Years ago, I used aquarium gravel, held in place by dripping in candle
wax. Then, instead of the wax, I used urethane spray expanding sealant
to hold the rocks and gravel in place. But these methods are messy,
imprecise, and might deform the plastic hulls unless used with extreme
care.

[Alexander Arnakis]

Post by Ron
Get yourself a box of .45 caliber lead balls for muzzleloaders and just
epoxy in place. I even used 6 of them in a 1/35 Jagdtiger against the
rear plate to counterbalance all the resin up front...still could have
used 3 or 4 more.....with Fruil tracks the thing is close to scale
weight.

One problem with epoxy is the tremendous amount of heat generated as
it cures. I'm afraid this could easily warp a plastic hull. But lead
balls do have their uses. Once, I was building an Airfix 1/96
Mayflower, and had already installed the decks after ballasting the
hull. Well, when I rechecked the ship in the water, I found that it
was down too much at the bow. The problem was how to add weight in the
aft end (the hull is divided by a transverse partition) without
disassembling the decks. I was able to roll in about 3 lead balls
between the main deck and the quarterdeck, and have them drop to the
bottom of the hull. Then, I secured them in place by squirting in a
little urethane foam sealant (which dries as hard as Styrofoam)
through the supplied wand. But this was a lucky break.

[Ron]

Heat isn't a problem for 99% of the injected kits out there, just use
the cheap 5 minute epoxy from the hardware store. I simply coat the ball
and drop it in place with tweezers and maybe dribble a little more epoxy
on it to make sure it stays. The trick is not to try and fill around the
balls with a solid chunk, just enough to do the job. When I did the 1/96
Revell Constitution I had a line of lead balls from stem to stern
epoxied in place and had no problems from the curing heat. I just want
enough weight to keep the thing solidly on it's keel in a cradle while
rigging, I don't care how it sits in water.

Post by Alexander Arnakis
One problem with epoxy is the tremendous amount of heat generated as
it cures. I'm afraid this could easily warp a plastic hull. But lead
balls do have their uses. Once, I was building an Airfix 1/96
Mayflower, and had already installed the decks after ballasting the
hull. Well, when I rechecked the ship in the water, I found that it
was down too much at the bow. The problem was how to add weight in the
aft end (the hull is divided by a transverse partition) without
disassembling the decks. I was able to roll in about 3 lead balls
between the main deck and the quarterdeck, and have them drop to the
bottom of the hull. Then, I secured them in place by squirting in a
little urethane foam sealant (which dries as hard as Styrofoam)
through the supplied wand. But this was a lucky break.

[Alexander Arnakis]

Post by Jon
I'm working on the Heller HMS Victory (1/100 scale) and was very surprised
to find that the decks do not fit inside the hull. The top deck at its
widest point is 6/32 of an inch too wide. A little sanding to fit would be
expected but not that much. I first noticed this problem with the second
deck from the bottom but as the hull narrows as it goes up things are
getting progressively worse. I have read many of the favorable comments
about this kit in this group and therefore assumed I had made some mistake
in assemble but in reviewing I don't see how this could be. The two hull
halves are just glued together and I don't see how any adjustments (or
mistakes) could be made. Anyone else have such a problem with the Heller HMS
Victory?

There are hull braces (the red pieces) that go under each of the three
lowest decks. These all must be installed before the decks are
installed. Each brace has a specific number which is referred to in
the instructions, but in some cases, the instructions are wrong! In
other words, there's the instruction way, and there's the correct way
of assembling this, and the two are not the same!

If you trial-fit the braces in relation to the decks, you should be
OK. Remember also that the top decks (the spar and poop decks) do not
have braces, and are held in place tightly by pressure from the ship's
sides. The hull is designed to be sprung apart for the installation of
these decks. That's why the transom piece has to be installed only
after all the decks are in place.

[Richard Haywood]

replying to Jon, Richard Haywood wrote:
WOW! I didn't know it was so hard. My kit it went together easily. All
decks fit just fine. I put the cannon on the lower desks, installed the upper
and proceeded upwards. Finally after having the hull done I, alas , had to
move and in the process 1/2 the cannon were knocked out. By that time I
decided I was going to install ropes for the cannon and bought a second kit.
But then had then moved from USA to China and my kit is in the USA! So I
bought a third kit! Plan on starting that this summer (2018)

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